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15 Feb 2010
Advisers are warning that the "man down the pub" could be fined for discussing tax planning, under draft legislation proposals from the taxman.
The "Working with Tax Agents: the next stage" draft legislation could see any individual who give anyone tax advice that leads to a tax loss to the Treasury as guilty of a new offence of deliberate wrongdoing, which carries a fine of between £1,500 to £50,000.
Nichola Ross Martin, MD of rossmartin.co.uk, warned that organisations such as the Citizens Advice Bureau, or the tax media industry would have to stop providing advice around tax issues.
"The Government’s proposals are clearly an attack on the fundamental right to freedom of speech," said Ross Martin.
"This is designed to tackle fraud by tax advisers, but HMRC refuses to release details of the number of agents that it believes are at fault. It refers to them as 'the minority' and suggested the numbers are in single figures. These new measures are completely out of proportion to the perceived threat.”
John Whiting, head of tax policy at the CIoT, said he was concerned at the implications of the draft legislation.
"As I read it, you or anyone saying' invest in an ISA and save money' could technically come under the wrongdoing [rules]," said Whiting.
"The CIoT is totally supportive of HMRC getting at fraudulent tax agents, but this opens everybody up. I'm sure it's not [HMRC's] intention but it's difficult to read it any other way."
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Concern over "man in the pub" caught under tax advice law
Have no fear...their plan all along has been to make sure there are no pubs so that should solve any potential problems
Posted by: michael, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Oh come off it !
This is what HMRC actually say -
Deliberate wrongdoing
5.3 ?Deliberate wrongdoing? is conduct that tax legislation previously
described as fraud or dishonest evasion and for which, on occasion,
HMRC undertakes an investigation using their criminal powers. HMRC
guidance now describes this as ?knowingly and intentionally? wrong
and involving tax being understated, over-claimed or otherwise not paid
when correctly due.
5.4 By ?deliberately? wrong HMRC does not mean tax planning or
otherwise taking a defensible view which is at odds with HMRC?s
interpretation of the legislation.
Hardly any different from now
Posted by: Steve, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
'Crass' Stupidity from a 'Crass' Government
Let us just work with the mindset that all MPs are 'on the make'..... They can fiddle expenses, cost the taxpayer a fortune in financing a final salary pension scheme and then just walk away from the 'mess' that they have created with a 'severance package' that most of us would only 'dream' existed.....
We then know the 'base line' for their thinking.......Just sit down and weep, because these are the type of people that think up this 'Garbage Legislation'
I hope nobody comes to my door to canvass my vote, I might just strangle them (by the way, that is a joke..... just so that the next knock on my door is not from the 'Thought Police'!
Posted by: Chris Slyfield, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Man in Pub Tax Advice
What a backward step! Now I will have to get my tax advice elsewhere. The man in the pub can no longer tell me how to beat the tax man.
Posted by: Pierre, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Man in the Pub cannot talk about anything
What is this country coming to? Tony Blair wanted to overthrow Saddam Hussain as a dictator and threat to our freedom. How about overthrowing this pathetic Government in the UK who is trying to thwart free thinking and discussion. As my children start to make their way in this world does this mean I can't talk to them about tax returns and the options they have for reducing tax bills by, for instance starting to make pension contributions. This government says one thing with the left hand and then shoots itself down with the right hand. Won't be long before they outlaw all topics of conversation. I look forward to going to the pub with my 18 year old son to talk about nothing - vive le revolution!
Posted by: Clive Baugh, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Im not surprised
This is to stop comments like "you dont have to pay £100 fine for a late submission of a tax return if all tax due is paid by 31st January"
As an accountant I am very concerned about the missinformation given out by HMRC to the general public and this measure I believe is to stop the general public finding out about what is actually correct
Posted by: AT, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Concern over "man in the pub" .........
It is appalling to think that day-to-day (legal) tax advice might be withheld. Is HMRC more interested in the tax-take off an ill-informed public under another guise? Or will they see sense and allow us to whisper the word 'ISA'?
Posted by: RN Wiseman, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Tax agents
It seems the issue revolves around the definition of "loss of tax" in the draft legislation. The HMRC consultative document cites blatant examples such as hiding capital in revenue with no justification. It states that tax planning is acceptable. However the legislation could be better expressed.
Posted by: Jeremy Roff, 16 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Be sure you are right too
As I understand it the penalties for late filing are restricted to the amount of tax outstanding on 31 January. Where is the misinformation AT?
Posted by: MH, 17 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Blown out of all proportion
Whether leglislation, if used badly, could be a risk to someone is a lot different to saying legislation is designed to allow HMRC the power to get us all. Yes it may have been drafted quickly and needs sometuning but to say it's the end of the world is OTT.
They clearly only want to use it to tackle the bad guys.
Anyway, from what I can tell from the article above, it only applies to half the population and so just look out for female accountants.
Posted by: Paul Scholes, 17 Feb 2010 | 00:00
What's the sub-text of the paper issued by HMRC?
It says on the front page of the paper issued by HMRC "Draft legislation on deliberate wrongdoing by tax agents..."
Isn't it right that someone who aids a taxpayer evade tax be penalised for 'deliberate wrongdoing'?
So the likes of CAB are, it seems, unlikely to be in a position where this might have an impact. On the other hand the 'Tax Agents Notice' that can be issued so that HMRC can acquire all the papers they desire in relation to an investigation involving a tax agent might have a much wider impact and cause much greater difficulty for the likes of CAB.
Posted by: Robert Killington, 17 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Quite right too
In my time as a tax professional, one of my 'hates' was the client who had got a wrong tax saving tip from another source. I think even those who give misguided informal advice should at least be on the receiving end of a warning letter. Obviously anyone deliberately aiding illegal tax evasion should face appropriate consequences.
Posted by: Robert Allen, 17 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Tax inspectors are alcoholics
This a simple way of justification of the regular presence of tax inspectors in bars.
This tax advice law allows inspectors to hang around bars and getting drunk, with the explanation that they were listening to chats and trying to find irregular tax advisors.
I will buy brewery shares.
JBZ
Posted by: Jean Bernard ZEIMET, 18 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Concern over "man in the pub" caught under tax advice law
This may sound somewhat far-fetched but i would NOT be surprised if this is another of Brown's ideas to bleed the electorate of more of OUR money.
Just so that HE can live in a style to which he has become accustomed.
I for one can see no benefit from the 'taxes' this man steals from us.
Posted by: Schmuel, 19 Feb 2010 | 00:00
'Man in the pub'
I suggest that AT reads the legislation; the fixed penalty cannot exceed the amount of tax outstanding at 31st January.
Tax manager
Posted by: Keith Young, 19 Feb 2010 | 00:00
Is the idea work the other way round
If it happen to give an advice deliberately that leads to a tax gain to the Treasury, will the treasury reward me some of the gain!!!!,
I wonder.
Posted by: Youssef, 19 Feb 2010 | 00:00